Following up on First Things

Sometime last week I posted about Owen's article, "St. Benedict After September 11" in First Things. Unfortunately, they only allow one article to be live on the First Things web-site during the current month. So through the magnificent technology of scanners I now have it here as a Word document that can be downloaded.

St. Benedict After September 11

Comments

[danny]

hey tim, i'm danny-- the guy who bumped into you and rudy at emergent, and asked you about the NT Wright conference in england. don't know if you watched, but ABC had him as one of their commentators on last night's "Jesus and Paul" special. i only watched the first hour, before recording it so i could watch the uconn blowout.. anyway, just fulfilling my promise to post :-)

[ashley]

Hey, Tim --

I got this article and read it -- good read.

I found myself wanting the author to define "defense" for me, though. He kept saying that we should defend America (warts and all)...I am hopeful that he recognizes dissent as a form of defense for America...In other words, is violence and support of violence (WAR) the only way to defend America?

[Robert Bingaman]

Ashley, I think that violence and support of violence is the only way to defend America (or the West for that matter) when violence is the method of the offender. Violence is employed all too often, and it usually seems unnecessary. But a stance that calls for no such thing seems a bit ignorant, considering there are people who are willing to wage violence that they consider to be a retaliation for what we call the Holy Wars. In the last year, I have been really sick of war, especially the last few months, with yesterday's news particularly - it's easy to get jaded. And with the current situation, its hard to feel that any of it is "right". But ideas and truth prevail because people are willing to defend them, under the right circumstances, a non-violent stance may work. Martin Luther King Jr certainly made a point that way, but that was because there were only a select group of people willing to shed blood, and it was taking place within a closed system, where laws were in place. The world situation is hardly a closed system, and I think we can vow nonviolence as much as we want, and be righteous in doing so, but then we must consider the reality of our meaning, our truth, and our culture (for what's its worth) being destroyed.

Lewis's short essay from The Weight of Glory, entitled Why I Am Not a Pacifist is from an old war. But his validation of the motivations behind violence (from any angle) is worth considering.

[gary manders]

Have to disagree with your first provocative statement, violence only leads to more violence, is that the gospel? But what about the second world war? Food for thought and no time to dig deeper at present ...

[Robert Bingaman]

Gary, I think its trouble to start summing up the gospel with one statement on violence, war, and the rest of it. Turn the other cheek was a definitive command, sure - but let's look at the context. Christ was talking to people within social situations, that were having social problems. Another commandment of the gospel was the great commision, to spread the good news to the ends of the earth. It seems hard to do that if we aren't even going to defend the ideas and beliefs we value when there are violent offendors. I think violence certainly does have a tendency to lead to more violence - in this endlessly broken world. But we should take a long look at what silence leads to, and ask ourselves if that is where we are called to be.

[ashley]

Hi Rob -- haven't heard from you in a while, so glad to see you're still around. Gary, I don't know you, but appreciate your input on the issue of violence as well.

Let me be up front -- I am a pacifist, and I am a pacifist because I believe that it expresses the call of Christ. I know that there are many who believe pacifism cannot work on a large scale, but I think back to a favorite quotation from GK Chesterton -- "Christianity has not been tried and found difficult, it has been found difficult and left untried. Even watered down, Christianity is hot enough to boil the modern world to rags..." Following Christ is radical if we don't allow it to be co-opted by America. I don't buy that the United States expresses the gospel in its political structure or ideology...I also don't believe that we've ever really tried to discover how to "wage peace" -- I do wonder what would happen if the amount of time, money and other resources that we spend on building weapons that maim and destory was spent on feeding people and educating people and healing people. Surely the world would be a different place.

[Robert Bingaman]

Ashley, I find your words very persuasive. What you have said is where my heart leads me, especially of late. Quoting Chesterton is a surefire way to get me to listen, and the words you have chosen to cite express the conflicts I am dealing with in my own mind. I should be up front too - I am not sure anymore, but pacifism as a rule still seems too basic for me. What Chesterton (and you) are saying forces me to consider that in truth, we Christians ought to Trust more, and if we believe what we do - nothing will defeat our beliefs. I certainly don't think America is the The Way, and I didn't mean to express that - the need for a defense of our beliefs that I speak of is a realistic possibility I see in the future, but not a summation of what is going on right now. America certainly hasn't tried to wage peace, I agree. The way the current administration approaches foriegn policy, and the policy of sharing ideas is disturbing and disastrous if you ask me. Ashley, when I get passionate - I think I sound a lot like you, but after reading the aforementioned speech by Lewis (addressed to a group of pacifists), I began to realize that if I'm going to be a pacifist, I'll need to consider each of war's riddles. I don't propose that you haven't done just that - but I know I am still working on it. Lewis asks us to employ the use of facts, intuition, and authority - to gain a clear perspective on war and its complexities. I can't have an argument with you about why you shouldn't be a pacifist, because I'm not sure you shouldn't be - and you are probably far more ready than I am. But I'd love to sit around and talk about it some time. And I'd love to hear what you think of what Lewis has to say and others smart folks that have put forth a non-pacifist Christian stance (So, not dubya).

Anyway, Sorry for straying from your original topic Tim. And Ashley, yeah - I'm still around - basically always have been, I'm just sort of measly for a 22 year old, so when I turn to the side, you can't see me (Kind of like the Pink Panther).

[gary manders]

I cannot respond to your coments at present as about to catch a plane to go on holiday but will make some reply on my return. Thanks for the input.

[ashley]

Rob

I've got to read Lewis' essay that you mentioned, and then I'd love to chat about pacifism or consumerism or poverty or the joy of a great spring day that expresses the creativity of our God! It's probably not too late (given that we are still at war in Iraq) to do a Midrash where we read a number of pieces from various authors and consider our role in this world as Christians...I wonder if there would be any takers on that topic?

[Robert Bingaman]

Sounds like a splendid Idea, I'm in.

[Paul]

By Midrash do you mean inviting the whole church for a discussion about pacifism vs. righteous war? While that would be fun seeing people get red in the face arguing, I wouldn't mind if it was a smaller group. I know Ashley and value her opinion/viewpoint and Robert, I enjoy reading your posts very much. Would you consider keeping it smaller? Some people just get a little too worked up for me. Maybe, we could call it a pacifist discussion on war.

[ashley]

I think if we were to do a Midrash, we would announce it in the Bulletin at church, but I've rarely seen a huge number of people show up to a discussion...We could choose some readings that address both sides of the issue and then discuss...Any suggestions for readings? (I'm thinking shorter essays...)